March 1, 2017

October 26, 2011

Episcopal Church Membership Makes Precipitious Drop

The denomination, which once claimed over 3.5 million members as recently as the mid-1960s, has lost over 40 percent of membership even while the U.S. population grew by over 50 percent.

A statistical summary provided by the Episcopal Church can be viewed here.

Jeff Walton, spokesman for IRD’s Anglican Action Program, commented:

“The drop below 2 million members is noteworthy, but the precipitous drop in attendance is even more dramatic, boding poorly for the Episcopal Church’s future. Almost one-quarter of Episcopalians who were in the pews in 2000 have vanished.

“Departures to other churches have fueled Episcopal decline, as have decreasing baptisms and its graying population.

“These statistics contrast sharply with more theologically conservative Anglican churches in the global south, many of which are witnessing skyrocketing numbers.

“Despite all its liberal cheer leading about inclusiveness, the Episcopal Church is a dwindling, nearly all white, increasingly gray-headed denomination with a grim future, absent divine intervention.”

The entire article is available here.

Share this story:

Recent Related Posts



Hummm… decade of evangelism, heretical bishops, open communion, inclusive theology, gay bishop, druid and Buddhist priests, millennium development goals, kangaroo ecclesiastical courts. I can’t believe none of this is stemming the losses. Surely the author has it all wrong.

[1] Posted by Festivus on 10-26-2011 at 12:11 PM · [top]

”...a dwindling, nearly all white, increasingly gray-headed denomination with a grim future, absent divine intervention.”

There are those (myself among them) that would assert that the current condition of the episcopal organization is due solely to divine intervention:
John 15:2

[2] Posted by The Pilgrim on 10-26-2011 at 12:12 PM · [top]

Looking at the chart from tec @ one can see that during 2010, 149 people a day walked out of the episcopal church.  That comes out to about one person leaving every ten minutes of every day for the entire year.  Heartwarming numbers.

[3] Posted by The Pilgrim on 10-26-2011 at 12:22 PM · [top]

Some other key stats from the Fast Facts sheet.

1.  While membership in TEC dropped 3% (2009-2010), ASA (Averate Sunday Attendance) was down 4%.

2.  Over the last 5 years (2006-2010), in terms of ASA,
only 17% of congregations grew by over 10%, while a whopping 57% declined in ASA over 10%.  Wow.  That’s really, really bad.

3.  Median ASA is now down to just 65.

4.  Over the last decade, ASA declined 23%.  That’s much more significant than the 16% reported drop in membership.

Finally, I call attention to the dramatic divergence Jeff Walton of IRD noted in his summary.  While it’s bad enough that TEC’s membership declined over 40% in the last 45 years, since we peaked at 3.5 million in mid 1960s, that decline is shown to be all the more disastrous when you realize that the population of the USA grew by over 50% during that same period.

So how’s all that liberal activism and “inclusivity” working for you, TEC?

David Handy+

[4] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 10-26-2011 at 12:35 PM · [top]

A loss of 202,665 people in just four years is disastrous, and if the trend continues at this rate, in four more years, they’ll have shrunk to mere insignificance.  At this time, there’s no indication that the trend will change.

[5] Posted by cennydd13 on 10-26-2011 at 12:37 PM · [top]

#3 I wonder what effect the pogrom against +Lawrence will have on this trend. There must be many similar to the 149 that stay simply out of inertia or institutional loyalty, and hopefully this latest debacle will present them with something they cannot ignore.

[6] Posted by SpongJohn SquarePantheist on 10-26-2011 at 12:39 PM · [top]

By way of comparison, I just checked Wikipedia on the stats for the Assemblies of God in the US.  For about ten years total (at two different periods in my life), I worshipped in AoG churches and know their vitality firsthand.

The contrasts with TEC are striking.

1.  Although the Assemblies claims only 1.75 million members in the US, the Pentecostals don’t count children as members.  They do however count “adherents,” which includes kids, and in 2010 the AoG counted over 3 million adherents in 12,457 churches.  Versus TEC with under 2 million members in about 7,000 churches.

2.  Although the AoG had a total membership of 1,753,881 in 2010, their ASA (Average Sunday Attendance) was MORE than that, i.e., 1,886,785.  That’s right, it’s not unusual for MORE people to attend worhsip than are actually members (I was one of those people for years).

Please note: the largest Pentecostal denomination has an ASA almost 3 times larger than TEC.  Hmmm, so who is “mainline” now and which denom is on the sidelines?

3.  The Assemblies fastest period of growth was from 1971 to 1984, when they doubled in size, from 1 million to 2 million “adherents.”  During the very same time that TEC was diminishing rapidly.

That helps put TEC’s decline in a wider context, and makes it look even worse.  But bad as things are already, I believe the worst is still to come for TEC.

David Handy+

[7] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 10-26-2011 at 12:57 PM · [top]

C’mon now, people.  TEC is NOT declining.

1.  It is living into its prophetic witness.

2.  It is right-sizing to become more agile and responsive to the demands of its market.

3.  It is shedding the disgruntled and exclusive reactionaries.

4.  It is re-positioning itself for growth via an explosion of enlightened right-thinking.

5.  It is establishing its exclusive franchise for the ‘spiritual but not religious’ community.

6.  It is emphasizing its footprint in those areas most agreeable to its chief demographic.

7.  It is weaving itself into a new fabric of unity with the Other.

But it is not, Not, NOT declining.  Get it right.


[8] Posted by carl on 10-26-2011 at 12:57 PM · [top]

The powers that be may see this as just jettisoning ballast to make for a faster ship.  A lighter ship might not sink as fast, but it is still sinking.

[9] Posted by Undergroundpewster on 10-26-2011 at 12:59 PM · [top]

What is the baptized member count for South Carolina? My guess is that if matters proceed with +Mark, the TEO membership of all of them is in jeopardy.
desert padre

[10] Posted by desertpadre on 10-26-2011 at 01:01 PM · [top]

Does anyone know whether these are new numbers? I think they were released earlier this year

[11] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-26-2011 at 01:04 PM · [top]

There’s one fact that’s become increasingly clear:  The ACNA, AMiA, and CANA are gaining in terms of previously unchurched persons coming into the Church, while TEC is fast losing ground, and while Schori and Company won’t admit it, they sure don’t like it.

[12] Posted by cennydd13 on 10-26-2011 at 01:09 PM · [top]

#8 So that’s what’s happening.  Thanks for the explanation lolz!

[13] Posted by Gartenfrau on 10-26-2011 at 01:34 PM · [top]

Okay, it looks like these might be recently released…unles someone else knows otherwise

[14] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-26-2011 at 01:49 PM · [top]

Here is the link to the TEC stats page.

It doesn’t look like the diocesan summaries are out yet on
one page…but you can look them up individually here:

[15] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-26-2011 at 01:55 PM · [top]

#11-Matt K—I don’t think so.  I was doing some research about 2 to 3 weeks ago, and only 2009 was posted. Dr. Hardaway almost always publishes the prior year #‘s in October.
#10.  The Diocesan summaries aren’t up yet. I expect they will be soon.  But you can access the #‘s anytime by going to the TEC webpage, slide your mouse to “Community” and click on “Research”.

[16] Posted by David Keller on 10-26-2011 at 02:05 PM · [top]

This IS divine intervention.

[17] Posted by A Senior Priest on 10-26-2011 at 02:26 PM · [top]

Here’s a faster link to the <A >, which have been updated in the last couple of days to run from 2000 - 2010.  Many, many churches are at the 40 - 60 ASA level.  I guess 40 is the new 100.

[18] Posted by The Little Myrmidon on 10-26-2011 at 03:07 PM · [top]

Sorry that link should be:

[19] Posted by The Little Myrmidon on 10-26-2011 at 03:07 PM · [top]

#18—That makes me feel just awful.  A friend just told me 60 is the new 40;  now all of a sudden I’m 150!

[20] Posted by David Keller on 10-26-2011 at 03:32 PM · [top]

The powers that be may see this as just jettisoning ballast to make for a faster ship.  A lighter ship might not sink as fast, but it is still sinking.

Unless it’s a traditional wooden craft.  Then, it might float about on the surface as a derelict, drifting about by wind and current, presenting a hazard to navigation for ships fruitfully engaged in commerce.

[21] Posted by paradoxymoron on 10-26-2011 at 04:14 PM · [top]

Membership and attendance numbers will probably drop even further by the time that TEC’s next General Convention is held because the Presiding Bishop will most likely have excommunicated the Bishop of South Carolina and his Diocese by then.

[22] Posted by Betty See on 10-26-2011 at 04:37 PM · [top]

Yep!  Typical jackboot justice!

[23] Posted by cennydd13 on 10-26-2011 at 05:00 PM · [top]

21.  Sooner or later, that wood becomes waterlogged and sinks, and when it hits the bottom, it rots.

[24] Posted by cennydd13 on 10-26-2011 at 05:03 PM · [top]

And I forgot to mention that the teredo worms eat the heart out of it.

[25] Posted by cennydd13 on 10-26-2011 at 05:04 PM · [top]

Pilgrim - that 149 equates to 2+ “average parishes” (using ASA) closing their doors EVERY SINGLE DAY.

At some point you’d think someone still inside would say:  “This isn’t working”.  Instead, they seem bent upon running toward the blast.

[26] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 10-26-2011 at 05:19 PM · [top]

David Handy - a good illustration is my home town of Sioux Falls.  The town has tripled in size since the 1980’s.  Yet, they haven’t opened a new Episcopal church building in that town since I believe 1961 (Holy Apostles).

[27] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 10-26-2011 at 05:22 PM · [top]

Here is my analysis, that I was working on:

There is a new 2006-2010 stat analysis page here:

Membership in 2010 is below 2 million for domestic dioceses and below 2.13 including overseas dioceses. I am quite sure that the newspaper articles will still be quoting 2.4 million.

I found this from interesting:

Total Average Sunday Worship Attendance (ASA): 765,326 727,822 705,257 682,963 657,831 <= numbers for 2006 - 2010
Net Change in ASA from Prior Year -21,945 -37,504 -22,565 -22,294 -25,132
One Year % Change in ASA -3% -5% -3% -3% -4%
Five Year % Change in ASA -11% -14% -14% -14% -16%
Ten Year % Change in ASA -9% -13% -16% -19% -23%
% of Churches with any Increase in ASA (from prior year) 37% 29% 35% 35% 34%
% of Churches with any loss in ASA (from prior year) 49% 56% 50% 51% 54%
% of Churches Growing 10%+ in ASA (past 5 years) 20% 18% 18% 18% 17%
% of Churches Declining 10%+ in ASA (past 5 years) 52% 56% 55% 54% 57%

Caveat: The one year, five year, and ten year losses can be thought of as moving averages that eliminate short term fluctuations. We still need to worry about the “Christmas effect” where the yearly ASA is artificially elevated because Christmas Eve falls on a Saturday or Sunday and so higher attendance numbers are seen in these years.  One can compare Christmas effect years to Christmas effect years or non-Christmas effect years to non-Christmas effect years, but one should proceed cautiously in comparing apples to oranges. The CE years were: 2000, 2005, and 2006. Now, 2010 was a non-CE year but 2005 and 2000 were both CE years. Thus, for example, the steady rise of ten year % change with a 2010 figure (-23%) might not be as high if one could take the CE into account.

One take home point is that the line that “those who were going to leave, have left” may or may not be true, but that is not stemming the tide. It might be that ageing demographics is now rearing its head rather than the orthodox fleeing Schorite fascist heterodoxy. That is small comfort.

From the FACT 2010 (, we see that 27.8% of Episcopal parishes have an ASA of 35 or less. And that 38% offer only one service and half of these report their church is less than a third full. How long can the endowments of these parishes last?

[28] Posted by robroy on 10-26-2011 at 06:14 PM · [top]

“You can’t split rotten wood. It’s only fit for burning.” ~ Dr. Benjamin Breckenridge Warfield, Princeton Theological Seminary

[29] Posted by wyclif on 10-26-2011 at 06:22 PM · [top]

The decline in ASA is quite linear, and hits zeros around 2034.  Interestingly that is similar to projections in England and Canada .

[30] Posted by Michael D on 10-26-2011 at 07:32 PM · [top]

On a related note, Canada’s largest Anglican church is doing just fine after being evicted from their building and now calling themselves “St Johns Vancouver.” Bishop Ingham’s rebel diocese retains the building and the right to use the name “St. Johns Shaughnessy.”

Anglican Essentials Canada reports that “The average Sunday attendance at St. John’s Shaughnessy on Oct 2 and Oct 9 was 28 people, and that was over two services. On the other hand the average Sunday attendance at St. John’s Vancouver new location was 802.”

[31] Posted by Michael D on 10-26-2011 at 07:41 PM · [top]

From a newspaper interview a couple of weeks ago with Ms Schori:

She oversees the Episcopal Church’s 2.4 million members in 16 countries and 110 dioceses and is one of 39 Anglican primates in the worldwide Anglican Communion…

Are people still leaving the church over it?
We’re not seeing more departures at the moment. Those who have gone to find another home have done so. We would remind them that the door is open, and we welcome anybody who wants to be a part of this community. 

[32] Posted by robroy on 10-26-2011 at 07:43 PM · [top]

[33] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 10-26-2011 at 08:01 PM · [top]

Then perhaps she’d care to explain just exactly why she exhibits so much hostility towards those in this country who openly disagree with what TEC is doing.  And especially, what gives her the right to say that we’re not valid Anglicans, when 22 foreign Anglican primates say that we are?  It is not and never has been her place to decide who is and who isn’t Anglican….nor is it Canterbury’s right.

[34] Posted by cennydd13 on 10-26-2011 at 08:26 PM · [top]

View the interview? Do I have to?

I pray daily for forgiveness of my sins because I think that my Hell would be watching Schori videos. Do you remember the video depositions? The one where she kept drinking from the water bottle trying to not answer the question. Finally, she hissed that it was she that ordered the spineless Peter Lee to break off amicable separation talks. That was the worst. But the sermon videos…they just make you want gouge out your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

[35] Posted by robroy on 10-26-2011 at 09:00 PM · [top]

Gosh, Robroy,

That’s how I felt about the Wicked Witch of the West when I was a kid. I remember running out of the family room every time she appeared on the tv screen.

And her flying monkeys - oh, they terrified me!

[36] Posted by sophy0075 on 10-26-2011 at 10:33 PM · [top]

I don’t know who taught KJS her homiletics, but I’d sure like to have a chat with him or her….out behind the barn with a razor strop!  My God….her sermons are AWFUL!

[37] Posted by cennydd13 on 10-27-2011 at 12:06 AM · [top]

The one Episcopal Church in our area (St. John’s, Tulare, CA) that didn’t leave for ACNA and is orthodox has been discussed recently during a bible study I attend. Someone in our study had visited St. John’s and noted how few people were in attendance. The visitor said ‘I was impressed with the liturgy and the preaching but wondered how many people would never walk through the church doors because of guilt by association.’ 
Most people I know are familiar with the departure of the majority of Episcopal churches in the Central Valley of California but assume (and for the most part correctly) that those few that remained in TEC did so because they were revisionists. After Fr. Rob Eaton accepted the call to St. John’s the parish showed signs of life and was growing. After it’s decision to remain in TEC the attendance and membership reportedly took a dive. Recently, the Episcopal DOSJ made some predictable decisions regarding SSB’s and despite the growth in population in this area, I think a lot of people would balk at membership or attendance in a church for which they would always need to apologize to other Christians for the un-biblical actions of their diocese and national church.

[38] Posted by priestwalter on 10-27-2011 at 05:53 AM · [top]

In the late 70’s and early 80’s, when I was fairly new to the Episcopal Church and thankful for the renewal movement going on, I thought that the major problem was that a lot of Episcopal members and clergy were simply ignorant of the Gospel, and that they were trying to earn God’s favor by doing good works.

That may have been true for many clergy and members (especially the members) at that time, but the longer I have been around, the more clear it became that the situation is not that the clergy and laity are ignorant of the Gospel, but rather that they know what it is, and they HATE THE GOSPEL.  The idea of being sinful is especially repulsive, and so both sin and the cross must be redefined - sin is now social, not personal, and the cross merely an example of love, or injustice, or any number of things.

Eyes are blind and hearts are stoney cold. Only the Holy Spirit can break Satan’s hold. I say this with sadness - and with the knowledge, that had God not opened my heart, I would be in the same place. It was not my intelligence, but the Lord’s mercy, that allowed me to understand and rely upon his grace. Even Schori is not impenetrable to such a move of the Spirit - perhaps we will yet give glory to God for an improbable rescue.

[39] Posted by AnglicanXn on 10-27-2011 at 07:07 AM · [top]

midwestnorwegian (#27),

Thanks for the shout out.  I’m a Sioux Falls native too, though I was raised at First Presbyterian there.  Are you familiar with the RC parish, Church of the Holy Spirit?  It’s true that TEC hasn’t planted a new church in that flourishing city since Holy Apostles was started around 1960/61, but the Catholics started Holy Spirit on the growing south side and it is now your typical huge RC parish, with several thousand families.

And look at how First Assembly of God has grown and thrived, and planted new churches in “the Sioux Empire” since the 60s.  And of course the Lutherans have started new churches too, several of them.

Things would be even drearier in Sioux Falls, if it weren’t that orthodox hero Fr. Tim Fountain is stationed there, and doing great things for Christ at Church of the Good Shepherd.  Thanks God for him!

But if you want to know one key reason why TEC has floundered in our hometown, midwestnorwegian, just recall that one of the former bishops of SD was the notorious +Craig Anderson, a smooth-talking liberal who went on to eventually become President of the National Council of Churches, with all that implies about his commitment to liberal activism, both theologically and politically.  And SD is a “red” state.

David Handy+
Glad to be FROM, not in, SD

[40] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 10-27-2011 at 08:02 AM · [top]


It’s so good to see you posting a bit more frequently of late.  I’ve missed your keen, incisive comments.  Plus you’re much better at number crunching than most of us. 

That stat about 27.8% of TEC congregations having an ASA of 35 or less is ominous indeed.  Thanks for highlighting it.

I’ve been waiting for Statman to weigh in here, and I hope he will soon.  But meanwhile, I’ll do what he would and call attention to the fact that Plate and Pledge figures are also crucial.  And with the median ASA now being a mere 65 people, that makes it very, very hard to meet the minimal threshold of $150K in P & P that most of us would say is necessary to have a viable parish with a full-time priest and adequate range of programs.

Here, as in so many other ways with TEC, as bad as things already are, they are almost bound (humanly speaking) to get much worse in the near future.

David Handy+

[41] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 10-27-2011 at 08:12 AM · [top]

I checked the chart for the local TEC diocese, and ASA here dropped (according to their little chart, which is hard to read, and I know how numbers are reported by parishes up here, so ASA and membership are inflated) by about 1% (which is to say 6 or 7 people).

Plate and pledge, however, dropped closer to 5%.

From which I surmise that they lost the wrong 1% of their ASA.

[42] Posted by tjmcmahon on 10-27-2011 at 08:22 AM · [top]

#42 raises a very good point.  In my time “at the top”  it was always apparent the numbers were being fudged.  The statistics we see are from parochial reports delivered to Dr. Hardaway, which he combines and analyses.  He has no control over the raw data.  My antecdotal experienece tells me these numbers are off (high) at least 5% (or more). Two egregious examples I personally know of are the Dean of a large cathedral, writing down numbers on the service book which reflected a larger number than the year before, without taking any count, and a rector of a large downtown parish, after the drops in attendance post 2003, reporting the number of people at all servics for the week (including weddings and funerals) as Average SUNDAY Attendance. The other thing many have pointed out is we continue to drop when US population continues to grow, so the real gap is really much bigger than the stastics show.

[43] Posted by David Keller on 10-27-2011 at 08:51 AM · [top]

Matt, in answer to your question, the 2010 statistics were quietly updated on the TEC website on Friday, October 22. For those familiar with the news cycle, releasing something on Friday afternoon is commonly referred to as a “data dump” when you want something ignored but must release it.

I was a bit surprised that TEC officials did not attempt to get out in front of this story with some spin. They’ve been devoting much of their efforts to counteracting Mollie Ziegler Hemingway’s insightful Wall Street Journal piece from a couple weeks ago about mandatory ACNA disaffiliation for settling parishes.

There is a LOT of information here to sift through, and I join others in eagerly awaiting Statmann’s analysis. I’m especially interested in seeing the marriage/baptism numbers, which tend to foreshadow future trends in membership and attendance.

BTW, one important item: if these numbers are correct, then TEC has surpassed the UCC as the fastest declining mainline church. We’ll need to see the updated PCUSA/ECLA stats before we can make that claim with certainty, however. The American Baptist and United Methodist rates of decline are far more modest, at about 1 percent a year.

[44] Posted by Jeff Walton on 10-27-2011 at 09:25 AM · [top]

Wow—it really was “quietly updated”—and one can certainly see why!

But I see that the diocesan and parish information has now been updated so people can view 2010 stats:

[45] Posted by Sarah on 10-27-2011 at 09:35 AM · [top]

For all that we can criticize about TEC (and there is plenty) I’m impressed with the transparency. While the TEC press office spins hard to pull off happy shiny tale, Kirk Hadaway toils away to provide an honest healthy look at the state of the denomination. And, despite the contradiction between spin and truth, someone at 815 is wise enough to let his work be seen.

Very good I think.

[46] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-27-2011 at 10:46 AM · [top]

I don’t see the process lasting until 2034.  It will play out more and more quickly as the individual parishes eat into more and more of their endowment principal. 
I looked up the numbers on a typical midwestern parish, and here are their numbers for a couple of weeks ago:
8 AM - 18
10 AM - 46
Plate and pledge:
$3022.00 for general operating expenses,
$1521.57 from the investment property
$4847.05 from the Trust Fund.
You can’t cut into your endowments for 50% of your operating costs for very long.

[47] Posted by The Pilgrim on 10-27-2011 at 12:00 PM · [top]

#47. Are those dollar figures for one month?  And attendance average weekly?
NW Bob

[48] Posted by Northwest Bob on 10-27-2011 at 12:55 PM · [top]

NW Bob:
That was the attendance on 10/9/2011.  They also had 39 at weekday services.  ECUSA stats list their ASA at ~64, so that number looks right.  The money numbers are also listed under the 10/9 date.  ECUSA lists their annual plate and pledge at ~$130,000 so those numbers look right for one week.

[49] Posted by The Pilgrim on 10-27-2011 at 01:29 PM · [top]

Oh—It’s St. James Columbus OH.

[50] Posted by The Pilgrim on 10-27-2011 at 01:29 PM · [top]

Hi Pilgrim,
Thanks.  $130K sounds about right.  Now bad if you are a church plant renting space.  Not good if you are trying to maintain a building. I can see why they are tapping the endowment.  But, shouldn’t their diocese be paying for building maintenance since they claim to own all buildings?  grin
NW Bob

[51] Posted by Northwest Bob on 10-27-2011 at 04:11 PM · [top]

I posted this on another thread in response to a comment on “local eucharistic communities,” but it seems relevant here, and it does include the best example I know of number inflation:

“Local Eucharistic Community”- new TEC term used since “member of the parish”, “Communicants in good standing” and “Baptised membership” no longer apply- since you no longer have to be received into the church to have voting rights at parish meetings, or be “in good standing” or baptised, in order to receive communion.  “Local Eucharistic Community” allows you to inflate your congregation size by counting everyone who ever walks through the doors, and lives within 20 miles, as a member
See here for an example from my area of the country:
That nearby parish has a membership 8 times its ASA.  And also, BTW, represents 25% of the entire membership claimed by the diocese.  If you use the usual multiplier of 3 for this parish, you decrease the diocesan count from 1625 to 1375 (which is likely much more realistic).  Also keep in mind that there are lots of summer tourists who increase ASA in the summer months, so the reality is that the parish is, if anything, actually even smaller.

[52] Posted by tjmcmahon on 10-28-2011 at 07:29 AM · [top]

What I found very interesting is the plate and pledge numbers.  I am a bit of a money changer and any time someone says “it isn’t about the money” it is.  Plate and pledges is down 4.3% ( I believe) since 2008 years and inflation has increased 4.4% resulting in a loss of spending power of about 8.7% over the last three years.  This has got to hurt. I am sure there are many parishes that are at a tiping point financially. With decrease in ASA and the economy the way it is I don’t see this trend changing.

[53] Posted by Dave B on 10-28-2011 at 07:38 AM · [top]

#46-Matt; you are correct about Kirk Hardaway.  He is the sole honest broker at 815 2d Avenue.  Frankly, I have been expecting him to be fired since about 2005.

[54] Posted by David Keller on 10-28-2011 at 08:04 AM · [top]

Registered members are welcome to leave comments. Log in here, or register here.

Comment Policy: We pride ourselves on having some of the most open, honest debate anywhere. However, we do have a few rules that we enforce strictly. They are: No over-the-top profanity, no racial or ethnic slurs, and no threats real or implied of physical violence. Please see this post for more explanation, and the posts here, here, and here for advice on becoming a valued commenter as opposed to an ex-commenter. Although we rarely do so, we reserve the right to remove or edit comments, as well as suspend users' accounts, solely at the discretion of site administrators. Since we try to err on the side of open debate, you may sometimes see comments which you believe strain the boundaries of our rules. Comments are the opinions of visitors, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of Stand Firm site administrators or Gri5th Media, LLC.